Stumped, Wrench needs help.

Discussion in 'Domestics' started by nickb2, Apr 10, 2017.

  1. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    MAKE:Ford
    MODEL:Escape
    YEAR:2006
    MILES:?
    ENGINE:3.0l
    DESCRIBE ISSUE....Engine swap, donor engine will not rev past 1000 or so rpm, vac steady @ 8-10hg, long term fuel trims on bank 2 -18%, short term -18%.

    Idles fine, sounds bogged down when I try to rev, then stalls if I put in gear and try to move truck with any kind of load. I am thinking a clogged cat but vac readings to not react like a clogged cat. Have NOT done a back pressure test as I do not have a tester handy.

    Vac readings indicate an intake manifold leak or something to that effect. No vac lines cut, missing or deteriorated. Lifted upper and lower intake, all surfaces and rubber grommet gaskets pristine. Plenum and lower intake show no signs of cracks or other. Used propane, brake cleaner and carb cleaner to try to locate why I only have 8hg @ idle.

    Removed bank two exhaust manifold which houses the cat, no sign of monolith damage and light shines clear through.

    Only code present is a stored P2197. Definition= O2 sensor signal biased/stuck lean B2/S1.

    Tried a KAM reset, short term and long term fuel trims shoot back to neg 18-20%.

    I have been working on this truck for days now and am running around thinking I am missing something.

    All injectors work great, spark plugs new and coils work great. Zero misfires and no injector faults in pid data.

    I really need a fresh opinion.

    Thx in advance
     
  2. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Oh, forgot to mention, this is a canada model, so no secondary air pump nonsense on board.

    Steps H1 to H5 of the following trouble shoot chart always brings me back to intake air leak.

    Here are snapshot of trouble shoot tree. H6 brings me back to H5 and now I am stumped. I would have put this in the mechanics lounge but thought I may get more thoughtful feedback here. This is one of our fleet rental cars so I am not on a clients bill right now, but the car is still taking up valuable space in the shop and I am sick of looking at it scratching my head.

    My readings don't make sense. Screenshot (75).png Screenshot (76).png Screenshot (77).png Screenshot (78).png
     
  3. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Adding long term and short term always give neg 36 to 40%, back to step H5. I can't get it to rev past 1000rpm so I cannot get conclusive result as asked in step H4. Uggg!!!
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2017
  4. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    BTW, did suspect a booster failure and vac leak there, nope, have brakes all day @ 8-10hg vac and when vac line from booster restricted/blocked, no change whatsoever. Same with any other vac line. Blocked them off also as asked in trouble shoot chart, no change.

    The only thing I have not tried is a new PCV. However, I did try the one from the old seized engine. No change.
     
  5. billr

    billr wrench Staff Member

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    Have you taken compression readings? Does this engine have VVT? Have you put a timing light on it? Yeah, you may have to make a temporary timing mark and pointer. Nothing super accurate, just good enough to see that spark advance isn't way retarded.
     
  6. Mobile Dan

    Mobile Dan wrench

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    Are the vacuum reading coming from a scanner or a mechanical gauge?

    Does this engine use an electronic throttle?

    Got fuel pressure?

    How many cylinders working? Sometimes a v6 will idle great on 3 good cylinders, but have no power.
     
  7. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    No, I did not take compression readings. I overlooked that as when I installed the donor engine, I felt normal resistance when bolting the flywheel nuts to torque converter. I could feel each compression stroke. I look for that every time I bolt the flywheel to a trans. It gives me a good idea of how the engine will turn over once I fire it up the first time. I felt like it had good compression 360%. Sadly, I will have to remove the upper intake again to get to the rear plugs for comp readings. That is something I should have done this morning while chasing the vac leak. That was my bad, and should have done that while I had access to all 6 cylinders. Good thing is that is is very easy and quick to get the upper manifold/plenum off.

    The vac readings were taken with a known good mechanical gauge. Fuel pressure is on par KOEO and @ idle. Aprox 38-40psi, but I did not do a output volume test.

    All cylinders work so my scanner says and disabling each injector with scanner also proves each cylinder is feeling the cut. The bank two in question is the one I can actually get to the COP's and each of those three cylinders reacts to the cut there also when I remove the coil connectors one at a time. Obviously, I had to erase a few bogus codes there. ;)

    Pid data shows crank and cam in sync etc. Every thing normal.

    At Bill, I will use a stud on the front cover as a point and mark the #1 cyl on TDC on the crank pully, but my pid data also shows proper timing on scanner.

    My gut feeling is that the issue is not compression, or lack of spark, off timing (chain jumped:eek:) but I will pull the upper intake again and do those checks for you guy's and post back tomorrow if I have time to pull the truck back into my bay. I am swamped with other stuff, so this one goes back on the to do list. I have two seized engine and a hydro locking engine that obviously needs a new engine or a major overhaul.

    A 5.3l burb. Seized on crank. A 5.4l F250, seized on crank. A 6.0l GMC with major blown head gasket spewing antifreeze out the tail pipe and hydro-locking, missing badly and probably a bent rod or two.

    Life up north sure is fun. :confused:

    Again, @ Bill, if this engine has VCT, I have rarely seen a VCT/VVT engine with a vacuum EGR. I highly doubt it has variable cam and have noted no cam actuators.

    There were a few models of 3.0ls in this shyte type escape. Mine is with the WP at rear of forward head.

    @Dan, it does not have electronic throttle.
     
  8. billr

    billr wrench Staff Member

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    Can you loosen the exhaust pipes at each manifold and drop them down 1/2" or so, to try it with little chance of there being excess back-pressure?
     
  9. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    My feeling and tech instinct is that when I do an injector cut test, if all cylinders feel the same at time of cut, fuel injectors are doing job and compression feels the same for each and every cut.

    @Bill, I cannot do as you asked for the exhaust manifolds, the cats are included in the exhaust manifold. Best I can do is to take out the pre cat O2 sensors. That was my next goal when I haul it back into my bay. Definitely was on my to do list, but as mentioned above, labor book only gives 17.2hrs for engine R and R, I am way past that now and have many other major jobs on my plate. Just to get to the forward cat/ex manifold, need to remove the AC compressor and other stuff. Can't even get a socket in there to remove the O2 sensor. These engines are sure a tight fit, especially with the AWD option.

    Snapshot of what I mean. I should be able to relieve back pressure by removing one S1 sensor at a time and monitor fuel trims and vac readings also. Screenshot (79).png
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2017
  10. kev2

    kev2 wrench

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    This caught my eye - remember I have terrible reading comprehension.
    P2197 is stuck lean, but FT's are minus 18. sensor says to little fuel and trims say too much fuel.
    ideas-
    Do a check for fuel pressure drop. ..ie leaking inj, regulator,
    A bad sensor on B1 - contamination on sensor, signal/return grounded.
    Any evidence of coolant leak.
    ECT ?
    Air intake ducting clear? no rats or rags

    On jumped timing - I would suspect a correlation code as CMP and CKP would not show same TDC.
    Maybe a clue - why did yu R&R engine? Was there any of these issues before swap?
     
  11. Mobile Dan

    Mobile Dan wrench

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    I use my 40 year old vac/pressure gauge and some adapters to check backpressure. Testing on a cold engine is good....so the hose is not damaged. Fastened into O2 sensor hole, pressure reading should be 1lb or less at idle; 2lb or less when revved. I have seen engines that had a good idle, but would peg my meter. Same cars would not go over 30 MPH on level ground.[​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2017
  12. kev2

    kev2 wrench

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    I did not see this - what is B1S1 B2S1 voltages on scanner? Will they react to a richening - choke air flow, spray into TB ?
     
  13. billr

    billr wrench Staff Member

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    Remember Kev, O2 sensors measure O2, not fuel. If the mixture gets so rich that there is poor/slow combustion, then the O2 sensor starts reading lean because much of the O2 hasn't been used up.
     
  14. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    I want to thank you all for the responses. I did not have time today to anything except start it up this morning. Wouldn't start. Battery was dead which I suspected it would. We got another blast of cold and snow and I knew the battery was on it's final legs.

    In response to this, I have no friggin clue. This is an old dossier I inherited when I started working in the greater upper white north. Imagine, where I live north of montreal, they had +20c. This morning we had -18c with wind chill of -25c. Spring is not at our door step up here till june.

    I had put this truck on the back burner because the mines are coming alive up here and had to focus on work trucks and the least of our worries were this chintzy SUV.

    We need any and all pick ups and suburbans road worthy as the mines are finally going.

    From what I know, the old engine had a internal noise. All I know is that when I came up here, old engine was out, gone to the junk with most of it's related parts also. So I had to fumble around to find all right bolts and attachment accessories to make a working engine. The donor engine came from Sept Iles, a bit south of Labrador.

    I have no clue how many miles it has. All I know is that it was a rusted pile of junk before I dug into it.

    The fact that I can get it to pass most readiness monitors except for the o2 with just idling shows me all systems are go in regards to evap and such.

    That is what is killing me. All PID data shows normal as I said before in regards to cam and crank sync. SO I am really not ready to believe it jumped time. But to sooth my mind, I will perform all the checks I should have done, such as compression and timing just to rule them out.

    So, again, thx, and I will post back more, and probably even pics of my laptop screenshots. I think this will make for an interesting thread with some actual photos and proof of my trouble shooting steps.
     
  15. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Every thing is steering me in so many different directions. I have to regroup and focus on basics and move on from there.

    I am VERY confident in my installation. Nothing is out of place and am actually quite proud of the outcome and look of my swap. It looks close to factory, which is a heck of a lot more than it looked like before. What a mess is what came to mind when I inherited this project. So I am very interested in knowing the actual state of this donor engine as the rest seems to be in great working order.

    Something is eluding me. Ok, nuff for now.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2017

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