Outlook Acadia Traverse...best way to remove engine

Discussion in 'Domestics' started by teehee, Nov 5, 2017.

  1. teehee

    teehee Full Member

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    Please fill out the following to ask a question.

    Saturn:
    Outlook:
    2009:
    150000:
    3.6:
    possible timing chain failure! Stalled going 75 on interstate. No restart, when attempting to start you can hear starter but doesn't sound like engines turning over. Anything simple I can check before I pull motor? Without a lift can the engine be removed? I have a cherry picker.....
     
  2. kev2

    kev2 wrench

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    engine stalls will not restart= needs engine?

    IDK did you test ANYTHING - compression, valve operation, Even a spark check , remove the valve covers AKA cam covers

    chains do not often fail (catastrophic) but with 3 chains IDK - a code might be there for offset/correlation issue if a chain or tensioner went.
     
  3. billr

    billr wrench Staff Member

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    Please clarify: you can hear the starter turning (whining/whirring) but the engine doesn't crank at all? Have you tried turning the engine by hand, to see if it can rotate at all. Yeah, I am kind of surprised like kev... you are a long way from knowing the engine has to be yanked out.
     
  4. LynnM

    LynnM Sr. Member

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    Front wheel drive. My guess drop the engine cradle out the bottom
     
  5. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Idea, tachometer, rpm/sensor data. And all of the above listed items such as compression.
     
  6. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Now to get on with some serious questions, is this not an interference engine? I can't reliably say so, but I think it is not. Actually, I think it is not since I am looking at TSB's due to this very known issue, and I have done quite a few myself, but not ready to put my hand in the fire on that one. So it is paramount to know if the valve train failed before pulling the engine.

    There are three chains in this engine, if one of the tensioners failed, maybe the valve train is ok and the VVT is just out of whack. Known issue causing a low compression issue. First, pull the front cover off, not a easy task, but better than pulling that engine with only a cherry picker.

    So the secret word here is VVT. Often, with GM engines of this type, I have encountered what sounds like a non compression engine when it is only the VVT system that is out of sync due to a very known issue of timing chain premature wear.

    So that is not something you want to overlook when maybe your only looking at 500$ timing chain kit.

    No way you are going to pull that engine out of the top, as Lynn here wrote above, cradle needs to come down. The rest is easy as pie if you have a lift. The timing chains can be done in place in about 1 and a half days labor. Dropping the cradle is less time consuming but not easy in your driveway with the limited tooling you have described.

    So to repeat myself, three chains, one primary, and two secondary. So before condemning the engine, pull the front cover, acertain damage there first before spending 2 grand on a used engine that probably already has a worn chain kit in there.

    You may be surprised to find that just a timing chain kit is all you need. :D For the rest, very reliable engines that are worth some minimal investment.

    The primary chain guide is usually the culprit sending the other two secondary chains out of whack.

    So look to that first before anything else.

    Oh forgot to mention the obvious, when you have your GF/wife crank the engine, does the crank balancer turn also? If so, that rules out a whole other mess. Basics first, as Billr and a few others here, and myself also like to say.

    Don't overthink this and dive hard earned money into a simple problem.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
  7. teehee

    teehee Full Member

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    Thanks everyone for the input! When you attempt to start, the crankshaft does visably rotate, but you can tell by the sound that there is no compression. Is there a checklist somewhere of all the components that must be removed or disconnected prior to dropping the engine?
     
  8. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Yes there is, but have you ascertained that the valve train is bent. Taking compression reading would to know if a chain broke or a guide went south. See ace 0 pdf, good luck in your drive way without proper tooling. But I must repeat myself, are you sure the engine is toast? If so, how did you go about checking that other than just by sound?
     

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  9. teehee

    teehee Full Member

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    Don't really know its toast, but at a minimum the timing set needs attention. I've seen the timing layout that lies beneath the timing cover, and I just assumed the best approach for service is to remove it. While out I could service other items that would be easily accessible.
     
  10. jd

    jd Hero Member

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    I describe the sound an engine makes when cranking with the timing dropped or out of whack, as the sound of an engine cranking with no spark plugs in it. The difference is the normal sound has a pulsation to it and the no-compression sound is steady. My quick search seems to show that high performance 3.6 as Interference, but not 3.6 as used in SUV's. That said, I was taught that non-int can become int if carbon builds up in the relief notches on the piston tops. So I wouldn't crank it a lot till I learned if timing had dropped. Timing Kit seems to be Part 12651450 for under $200 from online sources.
     
  11. teehee

    teehee Full Member

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    I'm certain that the cams aren't rotating with the crank. As soon as I get a day off I'm going to pull the timing cover off with engine in vehicle. It's tight in there but I believe doable. I'll report my findings. Thanks
     
  12. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    I am going to go into an anecdote here that may stress the importance of checking basics before jumping to conclusions.

    If some of what I write sounds condescending or opinionated towards others, it is just because I have to deal with poor troubleshooting from others because I am a so called specialist that calls for me to second guess others when they jump to conclusions.

    So here is what I may call a case study/anecdote for this thread.

    Last week, a car came to the shop on a flat bed. It was a no start and my boss gave me what was supposed to be a simple diagnosis from another co-worker a second guesing as he was not sure the engine was toast, and this became a nightmare for me because I now had to defend the hypothesis of my boss to a co-worker who was hell bent on saying the engine was shot but at the same time defend his honor and teach him at the same time. Not a fun thing to do when faced with a co-worker who does not have a full understanding of VVT systems but has basic understanding of what is a 4 stroke engine.

    Anyway, I will try to keep this long story short. The car turned over just like a car with no compression. He says he checked to see if the timing chain is turning the cam, it is. His conclusion was simple and brief. The chain was out of whack for some reason, compression zero on all cyl, and the head probably had bent valves and the pistons may have cracked tops. So in his mind, it needed a new engine. I asked him if he had checked for codes with the scanner first. He stated he had not. I then asked him "what is that clicking sound when you turn the key on?".

    He said it what probably a purge solenoid. Really? A purge solenoid clicking away like that for no reason when not in purge mode. I said "why don't we put the scanner on there and see."

    So I proceeded to do so and found a nice little code niche in there. A whole bunch of codes to wade through. Two of which struck me as very confusing to be with a non compressing engine. One was for a low battery, other was for a intake cam solenoid performance. I tested the battery, it was very drained and would not withstand any kind of load test. SO i put in a service battery to continue my service bay tests. Now that solenoid is no longer clicking away like mad all day long every time I put the key on. Just for a brief instant is is clicking, then it would subside. Still not good. My thoughts are now going in very different train of thought than a toast engine. If when cranking, oil is going to a what it thinks is a faulty cam solenoid, the cam is now retarding itself, giving false compression readings as it is full open, closed, open, closed in a very fast duty cycle way. No wonder my co-worker with limited electrical knowledge thought the chain had jumped for some reason.



    It was not a purge solenoid as my co-worker said, but the intake solenoid energizing like a bat out of hell. As I always do in a situation like this, I suspect bad engine grounds that may need some scrubbing. SO I proceed to do that. Clicking immediately goes away, I turn the engine over, and it fires right up and purrs like a kitten.

    Breif story, the engine was fine, the codes told the whole story. There was a lack of a diagnostic stream here. First thing the co worker should have done was to see the battery posts were oxidized to the max. That would have been a hint right there. The minute I put in a new battery, it fired right up. That is why I cleaned the engine grounds, to give a good path way to the cam solenoids to energize the CVT system.

    Many would have put a new intake cam solenoid in there, or even would have lost hours pin testing that to the ecm to no avail. At one point during my brief stint on this car, I could even hear and feel the exhaust cam solenoid clicking away also once I disconnected the intake cam solenoid. The ecm was on the fritz due to bad grounds and a bad battery. That is it. No busted engine here.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
  13. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    So my conclusion here is to Teehee,

    I think pulling that front cover is the best way to go. This is a very known issue on the engines. It is even recommended that of for some reason a engine replacement is necessary, a new timing kit is a must since they fail so much. Think of this a putting in a used 100000km+ timing belt engine without putting in a new timing belt and water pump. No one in their right mind would not invest in a new timing belt kit(which normally includes the water pump if the right kit is bought) before putting that engine back in there, just to have those items fail in a few thousand clicks due to that oversight.

    I think you may find that you just may need a timing kit as I wrote before, before replacing a very healthy engine for nothing. BTW, we still haven't got those comp readings yet. Were they taken?


    Thx JD, that somewhat confirms also what I think and wrote in a previous post, it is not a interference. But as you wrote, nothing is impossible.

    That is why it is imperative to put those timing marks back to specs and then take compression again. No hurt there as nothing can be broken and will only ascertain if the cylinders have enough compression to fire the engine and will confirm that all that is needed is a timing kit.
     
  14. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    I may have said this would not be easy, but if you do have any way of just leaving the powertrain on the cradle and hoisting the body, you could do that in just a few hours.

    You were right in assuming it would be easier and best approach for service. But as I said before, I am just not picturing this with just a cherry picker. :eek::giveup:
     
  15. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    I realize that removing all that is needed to get that front cover off is a horrendous task in place. It is doable but your knuckles will hurt for days.

    Is there any way you could rent a fork lift or get a good friend you know who has one to come help. Cuz if its a budget that is keeping you from going fast on this car, you may find that just one day in a driveway will turn into two or three, and you still won't have that front cover off.

    Anyways, I am out of this thread for now, I will jump in here once in a while to give my useless $.02;)
     

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