Need a little help on a P0014 code

Discussion in 'Domestics' started by CP, Jun 17, 2017.

  1. CP

    CP Jr. Member

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    2007 Saturn Outlook 3.7. 140000 miles. The P0014 code keeps coming back after clearing, always within a mile of driving. I have checked the oil level (oil gets changed quite regularly) have replaced the rear bank 1 exhaust solenoid and the sensor for this cam. One thing I notice when checking with the scanner is the data display, Exhaust CMP B1 Command (%) "jumps around on the numbers" It will be 30 then 60 then 40 then 55 then 39 then 52 etc. where the other cam readings hold steady within 1 number or so. There have been some issues with cam end play on some of these engines. Or how about the actual actuator on the end of the cam, do these cause a problem like this? Also the scanner test for the individual cam solenoid, the actual degrees shown, don't hold steady either. I may command it to 5 degrees and it may be 4 then jump to 2 and back to 5 etc. Just telling what I have seen and so far what I've done. Thanks for your response!
     
  2. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Mostly what we have here is a signal performance issue, not a shorted or open exhaust solenoid. So that was probably replaced for no reason, but good to know a new one is in there.

    I am not sure how to answer your question in regards to the numbers you have shown in percentile, normally, we check the ANGLE PARAMETERS.

    You will see on your scanner desired angle and should also see actual angle. They should in principle mimic themselves. So disregard the cmp B1 command % for now, and focus on why they are not mimicking themselves angle wise. I am happy to see you have a scanner that is showing you that. So, as said before, focus there.

    So you state the exhaust cam solenoid is brand new. Did you take a manual oil pressure reading? That is essential to this diagnostic trouble shoot.

    Here is a TSB that refers what you are talking about for the "
    "

    If after following the instruction for the P0014 code in the TSB, you are still getting conflicting readings angle wise, you may be looking at a blocked passage for the exhaust cam solenoid actuator. But first, I highly recommend you follow the TSB. I worked for GM for awhile, and these were notorious for that. SO from my experience, be sure to cover that before getting lost further in the weeds.

    This may require a cyl head. So be sure to check everything out fully. Here is that TSB.
     

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  3. kev2

    kev2 wrench

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    I always want easy simple cheap things to start
    My old standby for VCT is always a detergent "risolone' .
    Oil and pressure good?
    Electrical signal to solenoid, connector tight not prone to vibration problems.
    - OEM solenoid* aftermarket are my boogie man.
    But it sounds like you are right thinking an oil problem - actuator pressure leaking - BUt I cannot think of a oil pressure test to help us here. But will look.

    Not sure if yu have it so I attachecd the TSB for end play -

    *as I had this info I will add it
    4.6–7.5 ohms of resistance between the high control terminal A and the low reference terminal B of the CMP actuator solenoid
     

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  4. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Here is the trouble shoot for the P0014 code.

    I highly recommend you run a oil cleansing product such as risoline or similar that may help clear a block oil gallery in the affected head on bank 1. This may solve your problem for cheap. Sure worth a try. Royal purple make a great oil circulation system cleaner. Here is a link to that. http://www.royalpurpleindustrial.com/products/clean-and-flush/

    See ace 1 pdf.
     

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    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
  5. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Ha, Kev and me posted at same time, great minds think alike.
    ;):bat:
     
  6. kev2

    kev2 wrench

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    These multi chain cam timing problems with ALL that room to work and observe the actual timing ticks what a joy.... try anything.
     
  7. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    @Kev, wow, were did you find that TSB, it is a lot better than mine. It has color pictures and all. Mine sucks compared to yours. Mind sharing with me where you found that?
     
  8. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Again @ kev, I just read my TSB, mine also has the pictures, I just did not read it through. SO disregard my last post. I am typing to fast and not taking time to read what I am uploading, I am strictly going on memory. BTW, Kev, I love my new job.

    I hope the op will post back, I like these little problems here at BAT. They are great for others who find their solutions to similar problems when using the search option here.
     
  9. CP

    CP Jr. Member

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    Back again, don't know what the Outlook will be for this Saturn ( maybe the answer is out of this world!). Tried to follow the instructions in the TSB. Oil pressure is 33 lbs warm at idle, 75 lbs @ 2000 rpm'. Checked wiring and resistances at the ECM to the bank 1 Exhaust cam solenoid. That was ok. Have an additive cleaner in the oil. Checking numbers on two different scanners. Nickb2, you talk about Angle Parameters. Would my scanner variance number be the same? Driving steady speed, Exhaust cam bank 2, the variance number is 0 and maybe jumps to 1 occasionally. Now bank 1 where I am having problems, the variance number is all over , 0 to 7 to 6 to 3 to 7 etc etc as fast as you can read it. And the desired number don't match the actual number---- actual is all over the place as fast as you can read it. And so is the command number. Now today it also came up with a p0017 code once and also had that a couple weeks ago stored in history. I've done a crank relearn several times. Thanks for all your help and thoughts as we orbit around!!
     
  10. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Hi CP, since I see you are scanner equipped, try to find the CMP variance parameter.

    Essentially, a P0017 code is the same as a P0014 code. It is still a mechanical issue more than a electrical one. Good of you to mention it had this code in history. Doing as many crank relearns as you want will be of no help here.

    Here is the trouble shoot for P0017, compare it to the trouble shoot I posted for P0014, it is essentially the same with very few differences.

    Difference here is that you have to check angle parameter to variance parameter. Now is the time to use the bi-directional test functions of your scanner if you can do that and "command " the CMP actuator to see if it falls within parameters as shown in the chart.

    So, as we can see, P0017 is still bank 1, same as the P0014. So obviously bank 2 is fine. Have you done a engine oil circulation/flush yet??

    If the readings you are getting such as jumping around, and you are getting steady oil pressure at oil filter base, then this is more and more suggesting a blocked oil passage in bank 1 head or sloppy cam shaft end play. However, I don't find your readings for oil pressure to be within specs at all. You should have 10psi @ idle and 20psi @ 2000rpm. SO ask yourself, what can cause high oil pressure reading? From my experience, a restricted oil passages will very well do that. You state you have 33psi @ idle and 75psi @ 2000psi. So, again, ask yourself, what is going on here?

    I know it sucks to hear that, but everything seems to be pointing to that.
     

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    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  11. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Read post #3 and #4, Kev and I both HIGHLY recommend doing a flush to see if that will correct the problem before removing the offending head. ;)
     
  12. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Of note, there is also a check ball valves that are in the passages that supply oil to the CMP actuators in the head. read the following description for you r car. I am just trying to hammer home the fact that this to me is a very big indication that you are having a restricted oil passage problem and I will have no qualms about telling you I told you so once you have exhausted yourself looking elsewhere just to find I was right.

    Either way, if that flush doesn't work, you will most likely be looking at a major head job. You can clean those passages out yourself and I really don't know if those check ball valves can be replaced with do it yourself-er tools. Back in the day we called them drain back valves or something to that effect. Even if the cam actuator was defective, it WOULD NOT cause a spike in oil pressure as you have stated having.

    Pay particular attention to the 5th paragraph of the following PDF ace1.

    I could not locate a picture for you on where those check ball valves may be. A head shop would be more savy than me for this outlook. I do know that they are serviceable. I have done a few on some HHR's and other saturn/gm eco tec's. But never on a 3.6l. For the eco tec's 2.2l to the 2.4's the ticking noise was often due to a blocked oil feed passage. But for the 3.6l, I am not safe to tell you to tear into that head since I can't seem to find any pic's of a dissembled head for your model.

    Anyway, try the oil flush, take pressure readings again, if still jacked at 33 idle and 75 2grand, you are going to have to go kamikaze on this. :confused:
     

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  13. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    In principle, the oil passages for the CMP solenoids should be at front of head very close to the exhasut solenoid. You will most likely see a plug there, and if removed, check valve should be there, then you can try to clean out that passage with proper oil gallery cleaning brushes such as this.

    https://goodson.com/products/bg-kit-10-piece-brush-kit

    BG-KIT_2048x2048.jpg
     
  14. billr

    billr wrench Staff Member

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    I gotta ask... why do you think this cannot be an electrical problem? Surely the CMP sensor/circuit for that cam could be reporting bogus positions. The faster that "variance" is flittering around, the more likely it is to be an electrical problem. Hydraulic actuators can't respond nearly as fast as electrons.
     
  15. nickb2

    nickb2 Wrench. I help when I can

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    Simply cuz oil pressure is to high and the PCM algorithm is equipped to detect if the solenoid is in circuit failure. We would be seeing a whole different series of codes.

    Both codes the op is getting strictly report back to a mechanical performance issue, not a circuit failure.

    I hate debating, but my experience with these VCT's is quite extensive, and every time I see these codes appear, it is almost never the actual cam solenoid. I have seen hundreds of cam solenoids with gunked up oil passage screens, it is still a mechanical issue. Op says he has a new exhaust cam solenoid in there. So my gut is saying, with the high oil pressure, nothing electrical here.

    I hope that clarifies my position.

    Now, I gotta go to bed, got a big day ahead tomorrow. Have a suspect BCM or a headlamp automatic switch to check out first thing tomorrow.
     

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