crank no start

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#1
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MAKE:chevy
MODEL:s10
YEAR:2001
MILES:138k
ENGINE:4.3
DESCRIBE ISSUE....
2 yrs ago driving, heard valves, pullled over shut off. oil line to filter broke. repaired, new oil, started, ran normal. for about ten minutes. then started missing a little. knew something not right. drove to advance auto, priced a code reader, went on to autozone, but it started missing REAL bad, went back and got at advance. started driving home, about ten minutes it died. has never started again. had pulled home. over 2 months troubleshooting/replacing parts......

code for crankshaft position sensor- replaced
cps circuit tested good
no start
fuel filter
fuel pressure 62-65
compression 165-175
complete distributor
wires
plugs
spark jumps 1/2 inch
drained all gas, put in 5 gal of sunoco 360
spray starter fluid, sputter occasionally
no start
checked tdc rotor position couple times.
tracked it down to injectors not firing, didnt have info to go further

pulled it out of storage ready to go again, but.....i went thru 2 starters back then, now working with the third just trying to start. i have not seen ANYONE on any forum, mention this problem(and you can bet ive been on too many since this happened). i only know of it because of the literature in the starter info. it says my computer is advancing the timing as much as 50degrees !! because it wont start. and you can feel and hear it bucking. info says its possible to crack the block!!??
i posted on forums i thought someone would answer me something along the lines of the problems i had had.
maybe something like 'after replacing ...., you have to reset.....' .?
i dont know. but anything that would answer in line with what ive done so far.
im ready to go for it but not at the cost of another starter. i now have 2 starters and 5 good solenoids.!
only cranks about a second and half, then starter motor releases and spins.?
im gonna proceed with caution. will try to post back timely.
hope to get some good info flowing, like the starter problem, how to tell if the security system is the problem?, WHICH security system?, passlock/passcode?.......
can anyone shed light on that starter problem.?
and why it only cranks a second or so then releases and spins.?
thanks for any 'sensible' responses
 

billr

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#2
So, at the beginning of this an oil line broke... what was the oil level right after that? How long did you drive it before replenishing the lost oil?

Use a timing light to confirm what spark advance is, and use it on all cylinders. Unless you are cranking continuous for long periods, eating starters is a big clue; as is the "quick release" of starter engagement.

Rather than keep throwing parts at it, I would pull the valve covers and timing cover to check valve operation and timing. Note that it is possible to have good compression even if an exhaust valve doesn't open at all.

Use some common sense here; no security system is designed to make the starter behave like you describe. Those anti-thefts prevent cranking or firing, they don't eat starters.
 
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#3
you need a plan,
what codes are current?
what is fuel pressure now? not last time you checked
KOEO is there 12v at injectors? Any wire but solid PINK is supply


The over advance I remember and will check details I thought it was the V8s - suggest removing ALL plugs and using starter to spin eng - does starter operate ok without load? did you see any 'spray' out of a plug hole?

I will guess the oil cooler line failed which would spray oil everywhere esp left side.

Did you check CKP for physical damage - hitting tone ring?
Did you do CKP relearn - doubtful as it wont run but gotta ask.
You are aware no relationship dist to ign timing.
 
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billr

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#4
I'm going to disagree with the last sentence above. If there is a dizzy, with rotor/cap/plug wires, then it can affect spark timing. If the dizzy rotor isn't point correctly at the intended tower there can be "cross-firing" that sends the timing all off.
 
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#5
To address the "starter kicks out" concern...How does the starter act if you...

Crank the engine with the key turned off, using jumper wire at starter, starter solenoid, fuse, or starter relay (whichever is easy or available)?

Crank the engine with the spark disabled?

Crank the engine with the fuel disabled?

Another angle...how did you determine that the injectors aren't firing? Is this the Vortec design with the injectors inside the intake manifold?
 
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billr

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#6
In addition to the dizzy rotor/cap, I see there is a CMP sensor in the dizzy. Hopefully this engine has a CKP pattern than can determine #1 TDC without the sensor in the dizzy working. Anybody know?
 
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#7
yes bill the statement is confusing, the intent was to confirm the dist is NOT used to set timing.
Wanting to make sure the dist was not adjusted to control timing....

I only wanted to suggest a simple 1,2,3, type of approach.
 
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#8
wow.. thanks guys
in maryland, truck outside, 14 degrees, gonna be slow going
i was doing about 35, heard valves, i think real soon. shut off drifted to side. oil still coming out. wife came with supplies, repaired, filled new oil. started right up. running perfect. cruised back to town about ten miles. running so good i didnt think anything had happened. but then started missing in a way i knew wasnt right(not like a fouled plug or...)
still not bad enough to worry. went in advance auto, priced a code reader, went to price at autozone. started fine, but started missing worse in a mile or so, thats the first it seemed bad.! over next 2 months, troubleshooted as normal. wont go into much detail. code was crankcase pos sen. replaced. no start, found no fuel. filter. then no spark. pulled dist, bearings loose. no oil. complete new dist. kicked it over a lot at first, til first starter went. since has been minimal. still took another starter.

thanks bill, i remember using timing light to watch timing on number one. was in range but high . ill try to find starter info, post a copy. not gonna throw any more parts..!! ill be pulling the valve covers first. gonna be a few days, ill keep checking here, for whatever to look for
thanks kev, no codes. security light was on back then but not now. will check fuel press and i wasnt getting voltage at injectors. i left it at thinking security/computere/whatever was problem. over my head. i did disconnect coil it cranked the same. will remove plugs and try. oil line engine to filter broke. left side.
thanks dan, tested injectors by what my book said. haynes. i know theres a couple diff injector system ill try to get

i remember dist would only bolt one place, after positioning rotor.
thanks guys
 

billr

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#9
Can you post a video of trying to start it? I would like to hear what it sounds like as it cranks. Maybe do several videos, cranking with all the different conditions (spark/fuel disabled, etc) mentioned by Mobile Dan. When your wife showed up with the tools and oil, how much oil did you have to add to get the level back up into the normal range?
 

nickb2

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#10
Ok, my $.02. If your burning starters, the antitheft surely comes on all the times.

If your getting sputtering with starting fluid, half inch spark at plug boots, then fuel is shutting down.

Focus there.

For this you need a scanner to tell you what the antitheft module is doing. On GM's like this, you are looking for passlock agree or disagree.

But not to muddle further as a wise man here says to me often, you have thrown a ton of parts at this truck but have not established a proper diagnostic plan. I will upload one for you here since you say you did not go further out of lack of such info.

So first thing to do is check codes. If anything P1626, 31, 83 is present, it is a antitheft issue for sure and all you have done up to know is useless. If any of those codes present in step 2 are there post back and PLZ STOP throwing parts a this truck.

So check that out first.

This sounds insanely like an antitheft issue.

First thing, again, follow the trouble shoot chart here. Screenshot (136).png
 
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#12
just a note..... i followed a very good diagnostic path. each part was bad as replaced, except the first, the crankshaft position sensor. i knew nothing about that but just replaced it because of the code. i tried ohms tests for the old and new, both the same. tried starting with both back then also, no go.

the oil pump removed most of the oil from the engine. but not for long, was still draining when i stopped. pretty sure it took 3-4 out of 5 qt jug

i didnt go further back then cause of lack of info of what was stopping the injectors. i will do all those tests. i did follow a similiar proceedure to that, memory says 2 clear, 3 good, 4 good, 6 failed, 7-8 good. but i will be doing all again.

and doesnt the fact that i started it, stopped, and started it, several times, over several miles, for about an hour, say that it couldnt have gone to the point of no return.?
I WILL video all i can
the security light is not on
there are no codes. my scanner was cheap, about 80 bucks. actron-pocket scan plus CP9660. dont know how far i can go with that.?

one good dam thing.... i know i came to the right place..!!! thanks to all :)
 

billr

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#13
It still isn't clear to me: are the starters failing by burning up the electrical windings after you crank continuously for a long periods (over a minute at a time?); or do they fail mechanically in some way, like the starter motor still spins but the gear doesn't engage/turn the flywheel?

Edit: I browsed through the thread again. Do the starters fail by doing the "crank briefly and then kick-out" bit? Have they all failed in that same way? Can you hear the starter motor still turning after it will no longer crank the engine?

We seem to be going in two different directions here: lost valve/spark timing or anti-theft stopping fuel injection. I'll leave the "anti-theft" discussion to others, as I see no way a low oil-pressure event could upset the anti-theft and I see no way anti-theft could kill starters unless you are cranking long enough to burn them up.

If the low oil-pressure/level did some harm, it is hard to predict how much more has happened since the event. The fact that it ran for a while after that doesn't mean much. The initial event may have caused galling of metal surfaces that didn't prevent it from running right away, but steadily got worse.

Got it? I think it is really important to know if the starters are failing from just a lot of cranking on the engine and finally won't turn at all.
 
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#14
oooooo k.
quote- over next 2 months, troubleshooted as normal. wont go into much detail.
it would be impossible for me to relay EVERY action i performed over those 2 months. i really thought you all would take at least some things for granted.
like--- since im driving i must be over 16, have made some money to have a vehicle, AND WOULD NEVER >FIND<PAY FOR>ORDER < AND INSTALL A COMPLETE DISTRIBUTER....... among other parts, unless it was somehow warranted. if i had that kind of money,,,, i wouldnt be working on a 16 yr old truck.
would it help here if i say ,, lol
lol
with the original starter, after replacing all of above, it would crank about 2 seconds, then KICKBACK and stop, which made me release the key. aftere a few times, starter motor would run only, not crank. it was hard to find a solenoid only. when i did was 49 bucks, so got complete starter with sol. new starter only lasted about a week, AND I DO NOT KICK OVER A STARTER LONG ENOUGH TO SIMPLY BURN IT OUT.! got the third starter, started paying attention to info, which made perfect sense, if advanced 50 gegrees by the computer. but i dont know about all that, NOR AM I ACTING LIKE I DO. i would unhook battery for a while, try again, and obviously the computer had reset, and the kickback would not start again, til after a few attempts. as i said before, something happens to the starter after a few kickbacks, that it releases and SPINS. the starter motor only-SPINS.
i will do all you guys have said aqnd report back. i do believe something goes wrong with the solenoid's ground-through-the-starter-motor. i have one sol that has access to both solenoid terminals. it works normal with pos wire only. i will try adding a ground
 

billr

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#15
Lose the attitude, if you want me to remain here. We ask questions to clarify things, you are there and we are not. Also, when we ask questions or make suggestions, it would work better if you followed through and didn't just ignore them until we ask again-and-again. Repeating the questions seems to annoy you...

Your writing is sometimes not clear to me, another reason to ask questions. For example, the last sentence in the reply above refers to "both terminals" and the "pos wire". I want to assume the "pos wire" is the large cable going directly to the battery, but that makes no sense since you say it works normal with only that wire connected. That would have it cranking continuously as long as the battery is connected; a problem you haven't mentioned. As to the "both terminals" I think Chevy starters have either 3 or 4 terminals on the starter/solenoid. I have never seen one with just two terminals ("both"), so I'm confused as to which terminals you consider to be "both". In my mind, those starters have one big terminal (3/8"?) that the big battery cable connects to. And, another big terminal that connects to the starter motor via a short cable or strap, often un-insulated. And, there is a small terminal (#10?) that receives 12V only when cranking, that actually activates the starter. The wire to that small terminal is often PPL on GM cars. Lastly, in days gone by, there was another small terminal that output 12V when cranking; that was for bypassing the ballast resistor on breaker-point systems. Which of these four are your "both"? If you think there is a grounding problem, check for voltage between the starter case and the battery ground terminal, that should be easier than running a separate ground.


How do you know the spark is being advanced 50 deg. by the computer, are you seeing that in OBD2 live-data, while the engine is cranking?