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Author Topic: Peugeot 406 (D9) Auto Transmission water in ATF  (Read 6499 times)

Offline carz

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Peugeot 406 (D9) Auto Transmission water in ATF
« on: October 31, 2007, 07:31:58 AM »
I have a year 2002 Peugeot 406 with an AL4 Auto Gearbox.  The mileage is about 70,000km

I have gear slippages and jerk in the morning when the engine is cold (30 degrees C ambient temperature)

I sent the car to the authorised workshop, and the opened the valvebody cover and discovered thick whitish paste which they told me indicated water in the Transmission Fluid.   The car has a heat exchanger attached to the gearbox which uses coolant to exchange heat, to cool the gearbox. 

The workshop manager claims that there are "no evidence of coolant leak into the gearbox through the heat exchanger", and so he, by the process of elimination proclaimed that the car must have gone through a flood.   He said that the only place that he water could have entered the transmission is through the breather hole which is right on top the gearbox.   They REFUSED MY WARRANTY CLAIMS

I argued that I have been complaining about slight coolant loss of between 1/8 to 1/2 litres every 500 to 600 km travelled, even since 6 to 9 months ago till now, and most probably that explained where the coolant went.  They have done a pressure test and found no external leaks during the times I sent the car into the workshop.  They claim that if indeed if coolant leaks into the Transmission Oil through the Heat Exchanger, the coolant loss CANNOT be that little

I also argued that I have not gone through a flood....and asked them for evidence of flood in the car, which they could not point out.  They claim that I could have gone through a flood months back and now many kilometres later, the evidence is obviously gone.  I argued that if I have gone through a flood, there would be water marks, sand, soil in nooks and cranies that I couldn't possible clean up.  Moreover it does not look like I have attampted to cleanup the car.

Tomorrow they will open up the Heat Exchanger to look for signs of leakage, gasket failure...etc, and I will be present.   Please help as follows:-
1)  I need to know what to look for as evidence of a leak on the Heat Exchanger when it is taken out?
2)  Is it possible to have a very slow leak (1/8 to 1/2 litres every 500 to 600 km travelled) from coolant to Transmission oil, through the Heat Exchanger ?
3)  The coolant loss seems to slow down over time....what could explain that

« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 07:36:01 AM by carz »

Offline crunch

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Re: Peugeot 406 (D9) Auto Transmission water in ATF
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2007, 09:28:42 AM »
White stuff points to water.
Pink /reddish or green tint points to coolant in fluid.

I would call for a oil sample test on the transmission fluid. :)

What kind of coolant does it have in it.
How many miles on transmission?
Was the coolant lose checked and documented on a warranty repair order?

How bad is the transmission now?

Cooler leaks are very hard to find or test for.

The only test for one sometimes a pressure test that may or may not show the leak.
Or flush the transmission fluid and fill the coolant system with a lot of coolant leak dye and drive it and put the light checker on it and see if any coolant is getting into transmission fluid.

Coolant in transmission fluid usually wipes out transmission.

If it actually only water in transmission.
There has been cases of water getting in a transmission threw the dip stick tube if it is close or by or under a water drain or ac hose or drain.
Crunch
OEM parts only hurt one time Crunch said that.
Cheap after market stuff will bite you many times. My brother in law is learning that the hard way.

Offline carz

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Re: Peugeot 406 (D9) Auto Transmission water in ATF
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2007, 10:51:55 AM »
the mileage is 45K miles. The Coolant type is GLYSANTIN G33.

Coolant Leak has not been solved.
Transmission does not have dipstick.
Mileage is 43,000 miles.

Correction-  lose 1/8 to 1/2 litres every 2000 km travelled

Car still can be driven, but have to be light on the pedal, else it will slip.

Do you suppose the clutch plates would have sustained damage ?



« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 11:00:39 AM by carz »

Offline crunch

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Re: Peugeot 406 (D9) Auto Transmission water in ATF
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2007, 11:31:23 AM »
Coolant in transmission fluid very long or very much spells transmission is a gooner.

Ask for a transmission fluid oil sample test.

Good luck.
Crunch
OEM parts only hurt one time Crunch said that.
Cheap after market stuff will bite you many times. My brother in law is learning that the hard way.

Offline Transman

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Re: Peugeot 406 (D9) Auto Transmission water in ATF
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2007, 10:36:12 PM »
Agreed. The only add here would be to have them check the routing and condition of the vent tube of this trans. There are conditions that can drive water in through there, large rain puddles for example, that you have no control over and should be warranted. They should check the diff also. If water is only inside the trans then you were not in a flood so if the diff is clean then it would be a vent problem and hence, covered. Good Luck, Transman
P.S. You might want to insist they check for TSB's on that symptom as there might be a common problem, make sure they do that while you are standing there also. I will check my TSB's tomorrow and see if anything shows up.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 10:38:03 PM by Transman »
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Offline carz

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Re: Peugeot 406 (D9) Auto Transmission water in ATF
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2007, 09:40:08 AM »
Does water in Transmission Fluid damage the Torque Converter friction plates too?

If confirm Warrantible, what is manufacturer's  standard procedure ? Is it reasonable to insist that they replace the Torque converter together with the gearbox ?

Offline Transman

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Re: Peugeot 406 (D9) Auto Transmission water in ATF
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2007, 08:05:53 PM »
The Torque converter should positively be replaced with the tranny as an assembly and should come with it unless they are rebuilding yours at the dealership. Different dealers use different procedures. Some dealers simply replace the units and some dealerships insist on repairs in house. Water actually does not damage the friction material, it causes the glue to release the friction material from the steel. Technically, it causes an explosion between the friction material and the bonded steel. FWIW, Lol. Transman
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Offline carz

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Re: Peugeot 406 (D9) Auto Transmission water in ATF
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2007, 12:00:12 AM »
They have take out the Heat Exchanger (apparently on instructions by Peugeot Technical Platform), and taken some pictures to send back to Peugeot. 

The Manager is unable to explain to me how they intent to test the Heat Exchanger for leaks.

Is it a good idea to reconnect the Heat Exchanger to the coolant system (with Heat Exchanger removed from gearbox body), and do a Coolant pressure test be done to determine leak.  Is this a a good test and definitive test of a leak in the Heat EXchanger ?


Offline Transman

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Re: Peugeot 406 (D9) Auto Transmission water in ATF
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2007, 08:02:09 PM »
They wouldn't go that far unless there was a TSB or some other common problem pertaining to your symptoms. However, I am slow to suspect the trans cooler as the cause because you would have had coolant inside your trans instead of plain water. Have they checked the vent as a cause? Transman
To answer your question, they should be able to test the cooler for leakage.
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Offline carz

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Re: Peugeot 406 (D9) Auto Transmission water in ATF
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2007, 07:03:51 AM »
Looks like I would have to take this up with the Consumer's Tribunal as both the distributor and Peugeot Asean office are not helpful at all.

Before my warranty ended, I sent the car in for my last warranty service. Among them I complained about about slight 1st gear jerks (which was not present before), and again I complained about the slow coolant loss that I have. They dismissed it as nothing, and they said that they did not find any "error codes" upon PPS electronic diagnosis.

I got the car returned, and I did not have time to follow up. About 2 months later the snow & sports finally turned on. By then they claimed that my WARRANTY is already over.

I am sure that the gearbox was already showing signs of problems before the warranty ended, but it is their word against mine. It is also their argument that since the PPS electronic diagnosis did not show up any error, they cannot do anything then (before warranty ended)

When I sent the car in after the "snow and sports" lights turned on, it was then that they opened the Valve Body cover and discovered white paste (present of water). They said water ingress is external and blaimed it on the car being driven through a flood.

Do you guys out there think I have a VALID CASE ? WHAT should I do and how do I argue my case in the Tribunal ? Are there any legal minds out there, who can give some advise ?

I did some digging and found this:-
1) Workshop claimed "The heat exchanger is in good condition and also understands from technical cell that this type is a improved version", but this is incorrect. They also did not do any leak tests on the Heat Exchanger, yet they arrived at the conclusion that it is OK.

I found out that the Heat Exchanger (Distrib Chamber) on my car has part number 2275.47. This has been superceded by part number 2275.59.

2) Found out Peugeot Technical documents that states that there is a defect in the AL4 gearbox Breather Plug (Snifting Valve) PN 2268-20. According to the document, if you drive through a puddle of water or flood of 7cm in height at between 10 to 80 km/hr, it will cause water to enter the gearbox through the Breather Plug. This will cause Delay in engaging 1st gear, or shock when changing gear. The document says that 1 draining or several of the ATF does not always prove sufficient to regain normal gearbox operation; in the case overhaul or replace gearbox. They have since come out with a new Breather Plug (PN 5126-13) which solved the problem.

The workshop refused warranty on 2 grounds, that is, 1) my car is out of warranty 2) the water ingress is external and I have driven the car through a flood. They offered a solution, for which I have to pay for. Flush the gearbox (12 litres), and change the Valve Body, and see if it works. If not then change the gearbox.

Can someone give me advise on how I should should proceed with my case ?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2007, 07:09:30 AM by carz »

Offline Transman

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Re: Peugeot 406 (D9) Auto Transmission water in ATF
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2007, 09:21:13 PM »
I don't know where you are, nor am I an attorney. I have been repairing trannys for over 40 years though as well as insurance and accident claims. Did you keep paperwork everytime you returned your vehicle for service AND does it show what you were complaining about? I am sure they are banking on the fact that you don't want to pay for a lawyer to help and you will just go away.
Your problem is water not coolant so the breather problem is your best cause of action and anyone can hit a rain puddle at a high rate of speed or just drive when it is raining. Does your warranty void if you drive your car in the rain? I think not. You might need to talk to a lawyer, if he can find evidence of fraud then he can go for damages also and might be more interested in taking the case. Some dealers need to be brought down with the warranty wait out, they wait out your warranty until you pay because warranty pays next to nothing. Keep up informed, Transman
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Offline carz

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Re: Peugeot 406 (D9) Auto Transmission water in ATF
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2007, 06:09:23 AM »
Transman,

Thanks.  How can I send a private email message ?

Offline Transman

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Re: Peugeot 406 (D9) Auto Transmission water in ATF
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2007, 06:15:13 PM »
You might ask Tony to turn on the option for "PM" for you, Transman
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Offline carz

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Re: Peugeot 406 (D9) Auto Transmission water in ATF
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2007, 09:46:54 PM »
I will do that.  Meanwhile Transman, can you PM me instead ?
Thanks

Offline carz

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Re: Peugeot 406 (D9) Auto Transmission water in ATF
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2007, 10:00:45 PM »
What is Tony's email address ?   
I click on contact and the email Admin@troublecodes.net, does not work.  I got a message returned error from this address.

Thanks

 

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