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Author Topic: '00 F-650 with Cummins 5.9 turbo diesel  (Read 9014 times)

Offline Transman

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'00 F-650 with Cummins 5.9 turbo diesel
« on: April 01, 2007, 08:27:02 AM »
I have one in the shop that is causing more grey hairs than I deserve. It came in with the mil on, code 91, 110.
We did a scan on the accelerator sensor and it was glitchy so we replaced it. better but not there yet. the 110 is from engine overheating, the radiator is clogging. The symptom is low power, no miss or stumble but no power. Full throttle from standing start until you eventually get to road speed. The trans shifts are almost stacked and do not change with accelerator position. The modis shows 100% throttle and load properly and the boost comes up to 18 lbs. seemingly in a timely fashion. The original symptom was driving at highway speed the engine would lose power and slow way down, pull over and let is sit for a while and it would go again and this was intermittent, maybe once a week. This is a box/delivery truck and has had very little maintenance. We did a transfer pump test and it failed so we replaced filters (air & fuel) & transfer pump. a friend at the dealer told me he had one like this and cummins told him to replace all 6 injectors but he didn't have the weird trans shifting problem either. Any Ideas? Transman
It has the allison automatic trans.
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Offline MikeM

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Re: '00 F-650 with Cummins 5.9 turbo diesel
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2007, 09:10:26 AM »
  Transman, Are those Ford codes? Can you translate them for me?

 If you lost fuel supply there is a good chance you lost the VP-44. The VP-44 fails rather quickly without good fuel flow to keep it cool.
 If one of those codes says something about unable to reach desired timing, that is a dead give away.
 The stock set up with the fuel transfer is barely able to do the job when all is working right. We install a warning lamp in trucks with the Cummins and VP-44 injection pump. Many times the light will come on under load with a new transfer pump. Tank is just too far away in many trucks for the electric fuel pump to keep up. As you already know an electric pump is better at pushing then drawing fuel.
 The warning lamp will give the driver advance notice of a fuel supply problem before damaging the VP-44.
 If this truck has the saddle tanks under the doors, the distance is less, and may not be an issue. When the tank is further away we have had to add a frame mounted pusher pump.
 I can get you all the parts to add the warning lamp, if you and your customer want the added protection of early warning.

 Otherwise, I need a Cummins code, or a description of the code so I can find the Cummins code by description. Could get lucky and something is just derating the engine. High coolant temp would certainly cause derate.
My kids say their dad can fix anything but broken hearts and stupidity.

Offline Transman

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Re: '00 F-650 with Cummins 5.9 turbo diesel
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2007, 10:51:51 AM »
91 accel out of range, we then scanned it on the vantage and I saw dropouts on the high end, replaced and clean lines now but code has returned also, much less frequently actually only once.
110 valid temp reading  but out of range, overheating...bad radiator. I know this is an issue but the engine runs low power even cold, normal or hot.
uses saddle tank on pass side and volume test on new pump is good, old pump was just under acceptable, 1 qt in 25 seconds and not to spec.
My concern is the trans doesn't change shift points with relation to accelerator and speed which loads the engine even more, not that it is good when I manually shift the trans but worse when the vehicle shifts automatically. I am going to tee into the waste gate vac. line monday to make sure it's not acting out. When the engine reaches 2700 rpm the scanner shows boost dropping from 18 lbs to 4 and the engine flattens out. Still no miss or stutters though. Transman
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Offline MikeM

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Re: '00 F-650 with Cummins 5.9 turbo diesel
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2007, 11:21:29 AM »
 From what you describe with the transmission. I have to believe it is going into derate mode. In which case a lot of things go to a default.
 I believe I found your codes. 091 has to do with voltage high or low, would know which one if we had the FMI code too. It also has to do with the idle validation switch circuit, pin 25 of the OEM harness. Effect= engine will idle when IVS indicates idle.Operates at a set default engine speed when IVS indicates off idle. I have seen faulty IVS circuits mess up many a good tech.

 Your code 110 could be one of several problems with the coolant temp sensor circuit. Again a FMI code would narrow it right down. One is of course the one you mention, indicates over heated. The other two are above or below range. If it is above or below range it will go to a default value. Which you would see on your scanner, the value remains constant. If it is indicating overheated condition it will derate. I would look at the scanner to make sure it is not showing overheat even when it is not really overheated. Your signal pin is number 14 at the engine harness.

 Your the transmission guy, so you could explain better then I why the transmission acts so bad when things go into default/derate modes.
My kids say their dad can fix anything but broken hearts and stupidity.

Offline Transman

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Re: '00 F-650 with Cummins 5.9 turbo diesel
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2007, 04:18:47 PM »
Mike, The acclerator shows 0 to 100 percent fine as does the load. Where will I test/scan for the ivs circuit? What am I looking for to see if it derated?
The 110 code is clearly overheating, the radiator is ice cold at the bottom and burning hot at the top. but the problem is there when cold also and that is what I am after. I don't want to keep going back for more/higher po's and I can price the radiator into the mix but I need to know what I am after for the low power problem. The trans problem is related somehow and that is why I threw the symptom into the post. I think if I can find out why the engine is making low power then the trans will fix itself.
What should I look for at pin 25? Transman
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Offline MikeM

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Re: '00 F-650 with Cummins 5.9 turbo diesel
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2007, 05:35:59 PM »
 I have two problems in helping you. First I don't know the scanner your using and what it can or can not do. And second it is in a Ford. So it is also going through a Ford PCM. So I am assuming your connecting with OBD 2? So I don't know what your able to do or not do with OBD2. And there are two sides to it, the Cummins side and the Ford side. Cummins don't make TPS assemblies, they call that truck builders responsibility. Plus two wire harnesses, Fords and Cummins.

 I can provide you with detailed pinpoint tests tomarrow, if you give me an E-mail address and fax number. Code 091 is like 13 pages of troubleshooting. But it gives good pics and step by step directions, all your specs and such.

 I agree with you on the trans. Been there many times, and fixing the engine problem cured the trans.

 The rad being cold at the bottom and hot at the top. It draws coolant from the top hose, pumps coolant from the engine to the rad through the bottom hose. I could be wrong here, but a rad would have to be extremely plugged to do such a thing. My guess here is, the regulator is stuck or the seal is missing or damaged. Or the coolant pump has failed on you.
 If the seal is bad for the regulator coolant just circulates in the engine and won't go through the rad. You know what happens if it is stuck shut, or if the coolant pump is not pumping.
 This code is a engine protection code that will derate the engine. It will derate the engine if this code is inactive if there are too many counts. And of course automatic derate if the code is active.

 The other code for the throttle, operates at a set default engine speed when IVS indicates off idle.
 So at the times the TPS is not working, and your foot is into it, the engine will try to go to that default engine speed. I do not know what that engine speed is, but it is not much, just enough to get you home. So it will feel like no throttle response, no power.

 Remember it takes the engine burning fuel to make manifold pressure.Cut the fuel, it cuts the manifold pressure.Put bigger injectors in there and automatically get higher manifold pressures.
 So even though there could be a waste gate problem, or intake leak causing your low boost problem. It could also be the ECM derating the engine, cutting the fuel and timing back, lowering your boost.

 Have you cleared the codes and seen what code came up as the problem was happening? Watched what the ECM sees for coolant temp as this low power was happening?

 If you want that info shoot me a PM with your E-mail and fax.
My kids say their dad can fix anything but broken hearts and stupidity.

Offline Transman

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Re: '00 F-650 with Cummins 5.9 turbo diesel
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2007, 07:18:53 PM »
Mike, to catch you up on todays issues. We did go after the overheating problem first. It was not the water pump nor the radiator. The thermostat was actually bent, replaced and no more overheating. Cleared the codes and none returned, engine still a dog and the trans still stacking shifts. Transman
P.S. fuel pressure under load was 10 psi.
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Offline MikeM

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Re: '00 F-650 with Cummins 5.9 turbo diesel
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2007, 08:23:57 PM »
 I am thinking this is about to get expensive. No codes. Might want to consider rechecking some basics, fuel quality(no gas mixed in) and intake check for leaks(after turbo) as well as the waste gate you mentioned, and intake (before turbo) restriction. A guy hates to get tripped up over something simple.
 After that, if all checks well, I am thinking your on your way to expensive repairs. The guy you talked to who mentioned injectors could be right. My guess is still the VP-44. The injectors are really just nozzles in this engine. The injection is being done in the VP-44. I sure don't want you to take my guess on it. Sure hate to have someone change out a $1200 pump and not fix it, then say Mike you dumbazz. :).

 I am willing to send you any part of the troubleshooting manual you feel could help, or service manual if you do end up replacing parts. Feel free to call if you need anything. And don't forget the warning lamp suggestion, could save your customer from another $1200 injection pump.

 I am sorry I couldn't be better help to you.
My kids say their dad can fix anything but broken hearts and stupidity.

Offline Transman

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Re: '00 F-650 with Cummins 5.9 turbo diesel
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2007, 10:45:58 PM »
You have been very helpful and it is appreciated! Nobody likes working blind and information you faxed was helpful. To the owners of this vehicle it is fixed and happy (it has always been a dog). The overheating problem is gone and so the derate problem with it.
If you could e-mail the instructions for the light, unless that comes in the kit? I would appreciate that. Transman
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Offline MikeM

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Re: '00 F-650 with Cummins 5.9 turbo diesel
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2007, 10:24:03 AM »
I can send you intructions, very simple operation. It is the sender and special fittings that I have to make the job easy.
 I have been working since 7 am yesterday, snowing like crazy, buried up to the top of my head in snow, tows, and work. As soon as I can catch a breath I will give you more details on the set up.
My kids say their dad can fix anything but broken hearts and stupidity.

Offline Transman

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Re: '00 F-650 with Cummins 5.9 turbo diesel
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2007, 08:36:29 PM »
Thanks Mike, You have been very helpful. Stay warm and when you get a chance, no rush. Transman
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Offline MikeM

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Re: '00 F-650 with Cummins 5.9 turbo diesel
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2007, 08:59:57 AM »
 Give me a shipping address, PM if you desire. And I will send the parts you if you want them.36.73 + shipping. It is a very simple operation. It is a fitting to replace a banjo bolt where a sensor screws into, the sensor and and the connector. You supply the warning lamp. The lamp just needs to be a two wire light. We use PTO indicator lamps. They are small. To wire, just send 12 volts to one side of the lamp, from the other side of the lamp to the sender. The sender is normally closed, and self grounding, it provides the ground for the lamp.
 Normally all it takes is one VP-44 replacement to convince a customer it is a great idea.  Just let me know.

 Oh, there is a way to set this up with the ECM and engine warning lamp. But once it is wired the ECM would have to be reprogrammed to make it work. Since I can't do Cummins flashing of ECM, we just use a lamp. But I can provide the instructions for this way too. It is just a matter of wiring the sender into the ECM and flashing the ECM.
My kids say their dad can fix anything but broken hearts and stupidity.

Offline Transman

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Update???
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2007, 10:08:15 PM »
This vehicle was towed in today just before closing, time enough for a computer scan. The truck dies while driving down the highway and no longer starts but turns over nicely. The scan brings a code 233 on my Modis and it calls the code controller #2 failure and it is still active. I believe that controller #2 is the engine ecm and I had suspicions of a problem with it last month when it left the shop still with what i considered low power but the overheating problem was solved as well as the accelerator problem.
I will run the powers and grounds tomorrow to verify the ecm problem and I am open to suggestions, of course I will check the fuel pressure too but the transfer pump is running. Transman
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Offline MikeM

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Re: '00 F-650 with Cummins 5.9 turbo diesel
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2007, 06:39:37 AM »
 My book shows No calibration in VP-44 controller. So your controller 2 is the one mounted right on your VP-44 injection pump.

 Book also talks about the controller reading a different engine speed then the ECM. It wants you to compare engine speed with a hand held tach to the what Insite is showing you on the screen for ECM engine speed and VP-44 controller engine speed. Wants less then 50 rpm diff.

 So maybe you just lost an engine position or speed sensor?

 It also want to make sure fuel pressure is there and no air in fuel system.

 Please understand, I had to translate your code, so there is a chance I goofed that part up.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 06:59:55 AM by MikeM »
My kids say their dad can fix anything but broken hearts and stupidity.

Offline Transman

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Re: '00 F-650 with Cummins 5.9 turbo diesel
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2007, 10:00:29 PM »
Thanks Mike, A friend at Freightliner loaned me a breakout box to verify the vp-44 is most likely the cause. We did that today and the engine still did not start. As soon as the code is cleared, it returns. We did not check the sensor and will before we blame the pump itself but I am pretty comfortable the pump went south, this might explain why we still had no power when it left last time.
We did check for power and grounds to the pump also. Transman
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