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Author Topic: no start on toro self pace self propelled mower  (Read 2575 times)

Offline eddieguy

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no start on toro self pace self propelled mower
« on: September 20, 2013, 07:06:35 PM »
 I have a toro brand walk behind self pace mower ( model # 20332)  that I have owned a couple of years but used very little.  I tried starting it earlier today after it has sat since earlier this summer and it wont start. the cord pulls freely but no start.  This model does not require priming and there is no choke involved.  I pulled the spark plug and where as there might have been a little scent of fuel it did not smell strongly doused with fuel.     This might seem like a stupid question but I wanted to know if I took my spark tester that tests for sparks on cars would it determine if I had a spark on this mower? The tester is the type that hooks up in line with plug wire. ( I prefer using this type of tester vs  having an open spark near fuel.    I just recently was able to fix a toro self propelled mower that was given to me when I seen that the flywheel key was sheared but this mower is not experiencing the same symptoms (  cord pulls with fair amount of ease)   My way of fixing something in the past usually  involves me taking more than whats necessary apart so I thought you all could save me some grief. LOL    mower has very little usage time on it. Thanks in Advance for Advise

Offline eddieguy

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Re: no start on toro self pace self propelled mower
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2013, 07:15:39 PM »
 oh I guess I answered my own ? on the spark tester because it does flash when I pull the cord  ( Now that its darker I can see the light flash)  maybe its not getting fuel though

Offline billr

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Re: no start on toro self pace self propelled mower
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2013, 08:07:04 PM »
Take compression reading.  It will be a bit different from an engine with an electric starter, since you can't crank continuously, but you should see 100 psi or better after a few pulls, especially if this is OHV.  Also try a quick blast of carb-cleaner or starting fluid into the intake before trying to start.  If it fires and runs briefly that way you know it is a fuel issue.

Offline NickD

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Re: no start on toro self pace self propelled mower
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2013, 09:36:36 AM »
Small engine guys around here that service besides selling these things, besides recommending strongly not to use E10 in these things are saying to add fuel stabilizers.   EPA said no more adjustable jets so all are fixed now.  Just the slightest amount of even an invisible film on these jets can let you pull all day without starting these things.

Had to remove the carb to blow it out with choke and carb cleaner at the jets, but to do that, had to remove the carb.  First question was where is the fuel shut valve at and the carb bowl drain?  According to the owner's manual suppose to run the tank dry first before doing this by running the engine.  So how do you do that if it won't start?  Had to get a clean container first but wish they made that line a tad longer.  Still ended up spilling gas all over the place.

Doesn't sound like ignition problems as long as you can pull the plug, ground the electrode and see a spark  will pulling.  Push mowers just added that safety lever, kid got a new rider, haven't played with those in 30 years.  Has to have the transmission in neutral, brake, on, and be sitting on the seat before he can start it.  So that spark circuit is getting a bit more complicated.  If he gets his butt off the seat just a fraction of an inch or hits a bump causing that, his mower will kill.

Offline eddieguy

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Re: no start on toro self pace self propelled mower
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2013, 03:12:52 AM »
 sorry about this late post on this and hope I still get some more replies-  I didn't have anything to check compression with but I did find that I could get the mower to start and run for about 2 seconds when I removed the carb and sprayed some gas in directly.  I guess I can try and clean the carb best I can and reinstall and see what happens.  Im thinking about taking a thin wire like a bread tie and remove its paper wrap and try inserting that into the small holes in the carb and maybe that will help clean it-      hopefully a good cleaning of the carb will do the trick.  Does this sound like a problem that's isolated to the carb?  thanks in advance to replies

Offline eddieguy

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Re: no start on toro self pace self propelled mower
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2013, 03:17:43 AM »
 oh yeah-  would like to add that I used gas from the same gas can to run another mower and that mower ran fine on the same gas so I guess the gas is good

Offline billr

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Re: no start on toro self pace self propelled mower
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2013, 11:46:20 AM »
Small-engine carbs are notorious for problems like that.  Don't use a wire, though, that may scratch or enlarge a small air or fuel metering orifice and change the calibrations.  Use compressed air to clean things.  If there are any adjustable needle-valves, remove the needles and clean them and blow into the seat area as best you can without any other dis-assembly, that is often enough to cure the problem.  Don't be surprised if you do pull it all apart and don't find anything dirty or plugged, but blow it out and it works fine after re-assembly; that's often the way it goes.  If you don't have compressed air, use water from a garden hose, that would be better than the wire... but you will have to let it all dry out, of course, before re-assembly.

Offline eddieguy

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Re: no start on toro self pace self propelled mower
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2013, 12:59:29 PM »
billr thanks for that reply before I tried using wire to clean,     and your right about the fact that there didn't seem to appear  by a visual inspection anything plugging it but I will try using a garden hose and then letting dry.

Offline billr

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Re: no start on toro self pace self propelled mower
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2013, 03:23:01 PM »
There will be several passages and orifihttp://batauto.com/Forums/Smileys/default/fixed.gifces in there.  Remove any that can be unscrewed.  Blast everything from "both sides" if possible.  The water is a poor second choice, as some of that stuff is pretty small and water is much more viscous than air; but it's better than nothing.  Have you checked to be sure fuel is flowing from the tank and filling the float-bowl (and not over-filling it)?  Another "common fix" I have found for small engines is to remove the fuel line from the carb and blow back through the line into the tank.  There is a fine filter-screen in there that can easily get clogged with silt/crud.  Back-flushing it might be all it needs.  You really want air for that, otherwise you will have to drain and dry the tank too.  Do you have a vacuum cleaner that also blows, or a leaf-blower?  Those can develop enough pressure to do most of the blowing I am talking about, since it sounds like compressed-air is not readily available to you.

Offline eddieguy

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Re: no start on toro self pace self propelled mower
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2013, 08:06:54 PM »
sorry about this late post but I hope this will be read anyway and I will check the link provided.  I removed the carb and squirted fluid in through the opening that the fuel line would normaly be connected too and noticed that I could feel the bowl filling and hear the liquid slushing around inside ( this is with the carb removed from mower) but you never see any fluid come up through any opening except squirting back out from where im squirting in due to the needle on the float having risen and seated I guess. If the carb was working properly shouldn't I see at some point fluid coming out?    If someone was to pull the cord and I watched the carbs intake area wouldn't I see fluid coming out of the carb if it was working properly?   Yes billr is right I don't have compressed air available.  If i take the carb apart and remove the float and needle and reassemble and squirt fluid in the carb through opening that is normaly attached to fuel line then you will see fluid coming up out of carb as i would expect it should.   I would just get another carb if i could determine for certan the carb is the problem.  If i squirt fuel directly in intake mower will run for a couple of seconds.  I guess my objective here was to ask if there is a sure fire way that i could remove the carb and test the carb itself in some way to decide if the no running problem was due deffinately to the carb.  I hope what i have written makes sense because i must confess i don't know the proper terminology for the carbs parts.  Thanks for any more replies

Offline billr

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Re: no start on toro self pace self propelled mower
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2013, 09:15:42 PM »
You shouldn't see any fuel coming out in the throat of the carb, that doesn't happen until air is flowing through the carb.  The fuel is metered in proportion to the air flowing, so no air flow means no air...  You could try blowing through the carb throat with something like a leaf-blower, being sure to blow from the outboard (air filter) side.  That should result in a slight mist of fuel on the other side, that may be detectible on a piece of paper held in front of that side.  You can also get expensive compressed air or CO2 in small cans, often used for cleaning electronics.  One can would be more than enough, so cost wouldn't be all that bad.  Have you put the carb back together and tried it yet?  Don't forget to remove the needle valves for cleaning.  Yes, you will have to re-adjust them, but that isn't all that tricky.

Offline eddieguy

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Re: no start on toro self pace self propelled mower
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2013, 01:41:55 AM »
billr- thanks for that explanation and I did wonder if that was the case on needing that air flow through the carb throat to have any fuel come out.  I did try and reinstall the carb but the result was the same.  I could only get it to start and run for a couple of seconds by squirting some fuel directly into the carb throat.  I do have a leaf blower that I can try what you said and also try once again to reinstall the carb for another try.  I may get a can of compressed air as you say-  I know of a gas station that has a tire air filling hose  that has a squeeze trigger for blowing air their air hose   ( that's free  I might could use if someone hasn't stole it again)  yes cheap I know.  Could you or someone else explain this readjustment on the needle valve?   The needle itself first appeared to me to have a small adjustable screw on it but it doesn't seem to turn.  The needle rises into a small rubber looking gasket that I didn't know if I should remove.  I noticed that the threaded center cylinder shaped piece that the brass looking nut goes up into ( that holds carb bowl on has a small half shaped moon looking piece in it-  is this the normal shape for that part?  I didn't know if there was more to that half moon shaped brass colored piece or that's its normal shape. I will reinstall carb and try leaf blower thing and post findings.  Thanks for the patience

Offline billr

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Re: no start on toro self pace self propelled mower
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2013, 08:09:07 AM »
Pictures would help.  Is there only one adjustable needle?  Could you not turn the needle at all, or was there and additional screw related to the needle that wouldn't move?  Does the needle screw through that "rubber looking thing", like it is a washer, and is there a compression spring in between the underside of the needle thread and the rubber?  Re-adjustment usually amounts to screwing the needle out a lot, so the engine will run rich and start.  Once it is running and warmed up you start moving the needle and just see how the engine revs up when your snap the throttle open and takes a load in normal service.  If there are two needles, then one will be for idle and that is adjusted for most stable idle.  Same for the stop screw on the throttle shaft, if there is one.  One problem I often run into on the very cheapest carbs is that the throttle is just a die-cast "plug valve" rotating in the die-cast carb body and wears so bad there is a lot of looseness and flopping around.  Since that is after the carb throat and fuel metering, the mixture reaching the engine is out of "original" calibration and is varying at random!  Hopefully, yours is a larger "small engine" with a more sophisticated carb.  Again, pictures would help.  If you have trouble posting them, PM me and we will work out a way.

Offline eddieguy

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Re: no start on toro self pace self propelled mower
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2013, 11:18:08 PM »
billr-  I must be an idiot because even though I know I can get some pics of the carbs float and pics of the needle with screw I don't have a clue as to how to post them on here even though I tried to navigate this site and click on the help section. I can get the pics on my computer but if you know how I can post them on here or to a personal email ( if the rules allow here) please let me know.  Just to answere a question or two though-  there is what appears to be only one needle ( screw inside a tiny pendulum shaped pointed object ( I suppose is what is termed as the needle) that goes into a tiny round shaped rubber like washer when the plastic float is raised)  the needle will turn on the screw but if its making a real difference in its length its very minimal and hard to tell. I considered taking a sheet rock screw and trying to remove the tiny rubber like washer to see if its damaged somehow but didn't know if I might damage it myself just by removing it.  with the carb off today and its bowl full of fuel  I tried as you suggested ( if following instructs correctly) I took a brown piece of paper bag and covered opposite side of filter and blew my leaf blowers air through it- I held the paper so the fuel intake line was closed.... the result was the only place I seen evidence of fuel was where the paper covered the fuel intake line ( where the fuel tank hose would normaly be hooked up)  the desire to learn is here.... thanks for your paitence        would be happy to supply pics if I can figure out how to post them

Offline billr

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Re: no start on toro self pace self propelled mower
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2013, 10:51:49 AM »
First things first... just below the big box where you type "replies", isn't there a line at the left,that reads "Attachments and other options"?

 

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